and I just happened to come across this photo to which I added a 270 degree angle. So, for those of you who questioned my math skills when I said that you should be at a 270 degree angle to the opponent's body, here you go, photographic evidence. And yes, it's not EXACTLY 270 degrees but you have to admit that it is pretty damn close.
oh, and by the way, my Ph.D. is in Educational Psychology but my specializations were Applied Statistics and Tests and Measurement, which means I had way more courses like Multivariate Statistics, Log-linear models and Structural Equation Modeling than on things like Curriculum Theory. (I had one course on that - not my cup of tea.) In my "day job" I'm president of a company that does statistical analysis, computer programming for contracted research and evaluation research.
12 comments:
Doc You better put up another
photo and angle of the armbar done from the other side too for the
unwashed and slow EGGspurts ;)
Dude, you're still wrong. The only way you would move 270 degrees to get an armbar is if you were in tate, grab uke's left arm w/your right arm, then moved the your hip to uke's right side (now yoko shiho) and them proceded to scoot around uke's head (kami shiho) and then get the arm.
This is the closest I've seen to 270 degrees for an armbar, but it's still only technically 180:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6S2Qd9PdNI
Here's an armbar from tate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NOTeOSBHLU
Again, he only moves 90 degrees, not 270.
-Abdullah
Beware Beware! The problem with these angle thingamagiges is a mistake made by most: Nobody indicates the references points relative to the angles described. Classic Bujinkan problem (for example) Uke does a Nagash (arm hit) from a 90 degree angle. Ok: 90 degrees to what? the person's arm? the person's body? the person's line of attack?
In the case of this arm bar the angle has to be described relative to something....either tore's hips, Ucke's arm, the transversal ventral line of ucke as it extends ad infinitum into space from the mat.... Hope this helps, it is something I noticed in many arts that use angles.
I think I speak for everyone when I say, NO ONE would say you should be 270 degrees for an arm bar. Now, 3π/2 I could get behind...
Hi Abdullah -
Nice to hear from you. Hope all is going well. I am still not wrong, because I did not say that you MOVE 270 to get to an arm bar. I said when you do the arm bar you should be 270 from the opponent's body. As you know, of course, those are two different things.
As dsimon pointed out (correctly), the angle depends on your point of reference. If you are on the other side or if you twist around the angle is different.
In my case, the reference point was the other person's body, which I clearly stated, however, dsimon is right again in that if it was on the OTHER side of the body the angle would not be 270
Standing to Kesa: 90°
Kesa to juji: 180°
180° + 90° = 270°
There, for the pedantic folks who can't understand it was just a funny way to say "perpendicular to uke's body". (and probably won't understand my explanation either, now that I think of it. Duh!)
I am amazed that this is what people's attention gets hung up on. We have an ex-world champ who has made a career out of juji explaining her technique. We could have a discussion about the different grips people use to keep their arms together, how to break those grips without giving away an opportunity for escape, how to keep uke's arm to the chest (Holding one's own gi?), bicep slicer for ukes who won't let go and hundred other questions. Or far more importantly, the different ways to get into that position in the first place...
But noooo... instead we have a debate on the all important 270° vs 90° issue.
Amazing.
I'm good. I have some job interviews lined up this week and throughout the summer. Going to spend the summer back east collecting and analyzing data to finish up my degree project/thesis. I'd like to stay on the left coast, preferably back at Nanka, but the job market looks better on the east coast.
Your logic reminds me of a prof. that taught multivariate analysis. Every lecture she gave left us walking away with a migraine.
Rereading what you wrote, you said that, "you should be at a 270 degree angle to the opponent's body." The armbar, juji gatame 十字固, literally means hold in the shape of a cross, which is four 90 degree angles.
You're the first person I've ever heard talk about the other 270 degrees instead of the 90 that jumps to everyone's mind. Sounds like a problem a geometry teacher would put on a test just to mess with the students' head.
-Abdullah
Two questions for you, Frau Doktor:
1) Was the choice of 270 meant to illustrate a point, or just to be contrarian (not that I would call someone I haven't met a contrarian, of course - I'm just asking the question). I ask because I can kind of rationalize the 270 part of the way... you start leaning forward (if you have to), decline towards the head, then straighten out to the rear... So I could call it 180 degrees from the opponent's far perpendicular. But that's just weird.
2) What are your thoughts on staying at a more headward angle (230?) or "collecting the leg" and ending at a more footward angle (310?)?
Also, I have a cool drill that I plan to post next time I bring my video camera to class: The short version is that uke (on her back) grabs her own elbows, and tori, in a juji position, can only use his legs to keep uke from escaping. Object is to make the leg part (digging in your heels, squeezing your knees) innate. There are more nuances, but that's the gist. What do you think?
Okay, Chad, you got me!
I was just amusing myself because as Sylver / dsimon others have noted the angle actually depends on your perspective and which side of the body you are on.
While we are on the topic, could you do another post on the ways to set up an opponent for juji gatame?
I remember you gave explanations on the transition from half-nelson to juji, and from tate shiho to juji.
For instance, when uke is flat, face down, how do you go from there to an armbar? (I can go for a choke or a pin from there, but I would like to have an armbar from there as well).
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